I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I still think that submission is a two way street in marriage and that is what Paul is first implying by saying that first couples submit to each other. The context seems to be that makes the trust for deeper love and submission possible.

Yeah, I was not that impressed with “Focus on the Family” take. There is really no need to feel like they need to defend men from male bashing, men are doing just fine and are hardly a depowered gender that needs protecting.

Again, thanks for your thoughts. It is appreciated.

Your website doesn’t post replies right away, so I’m not sue if there’s a glitch in the system and my reply is lost in cyber space or not, so forgive me if I’m posting this a second time, as I accidentally did my first comment.
I do teach my children their worth, as you will note I said at the beginning of my previous comment that men and women are created in equal worth and value. I think the problem in our society is a misunderstanding of what Paul means when he uses “submit” in his epistles. We see it as a dirty word and we focus on it in women’s circles, rather than calling the men to task for forsaking THEIR command to love the women in their lives as Jesus loved the church–and sacrificed himself for it. Instead of acting selfLESS, men have routinely acted out of selfISHNESS, so now we have generations of women who cringe at the idea of submitting to their husbands. Yet, we’re called to submit to them as we submit to the Lord–and no one would suggest we ignore the second part of that command.
As to the hierarchy and the other things I touched upon, here is an article that puts my thoughts into words a lot better than I have apparently done: https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-q-and-a/relationships-and-marriage/submission-of-wives-to-husbands. Make no mistake–I am not advocating for women to act as doormats or mere objects, nor would I EVER teach my children that. My previous comment did not allude to that in the least. And that is NOT what submission means in the biblical context.

I do teach my children their worth–you will note that I wrote men and women are created equal in worth and value. But men are told in Ephesians 5 (which is all about loving one another as equals) to love their wives like Jesus loved the church–and that’s a verse that is pushed to the wayside while women complain over the “submissive” part in the previous set of verses. I think women have a problem with that notion because too many men have taken advantage of that phrase, they themselves ignoring their God-given command to love the women in their lives like their own bodies and care about us and sacrifice for us, as Jesus loved and sacrificed himself for the church.
I think the biggest problem is understanding what “submission” means in these verses; not just in Ephesians, but other epistles, as well. Here is an article that explains far better than I can where I’m coming from: https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-q-and-a/relationships-and-marriage/submission-of-wives-to-husbands

Thank for your thoughts.
I do agree with you that the fall messed us all up! I can’t agree that the because of the fall God allowed any such hierarchy. The reason I can’t say that is Jesus is not a liar, and Jesus himself made it very clear that hierarchy (people ruling over people with authority) is not permissible for any for his followers. See Matthew 20:25. He even says that if we allow this we act like the Gentiles. That is a pretty harsh warning!
That said, I am not at all saying there is no order. If you read my article you know I dedicated a lot of time to discussing order, creation order, and Paul’s use of order. You also saw I concluded that Paul was correct and that there is an order to creation and the fall. However, that order in no way means anything in absolutes about anyone’s current ontological nature. The nature of Mankind, Males and Females, is FALLEN and we both share that, because we both entered into the fall even if the order and reasons are not identical… the outcome is. I even went deep into explaining the “curse of child-birthing” (given to Eve after the fall) is in fact also the promise of Salvation, the method of which the Savior came into the world. That is a pretty big deal don’t you think? So there are roles and functions, as a male, I can’t give birth. So while it would be correct to say there are gender roles that even basic biology upholds it would be incorrect that such role equates to value, worth, or status before God and each other.
I find it ever so interesting that you, a woman, points out that Paul told wives to be submissive fail to look that the very verse before it where he tells MEN and Women to first submit to each other. “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” It seems pretty clear, that only reason a woman is to submit to a man is because he is also submitting to her!
If you want a “godly Captain America,” type form your daughters, teach them their WORTH! They were not created to be mere objects of submission for a man, but they were created to be equals with their Husbands bringing glory to their King, Jesus. If they work, lead, or stay home, is not at all the issue. The issue is, they can’t glorify God if get worthy from any other place or role.

Men and women are made with equal worth and value – – but they are also made to do different works. Men and women are NOT physically, emotionally, & mentally the same. Men are made to be the caretakers, providers of women & children; they’re made with an internal drive to protect and be responsible for those in their care. Sin warps that all too often, but it doesn’t cancel out these God-given needs. Contrariwise, women were created with an emotional aspect to care for and rear her children; they are given traits such as the ability to muti-task, a deep well of compassion, etc., that many men do not have. Not that a mother is the only thing a woman should do – – just look at Proverbs 31 as an example – – but the role of mother is being dangerously downplayed in our society. To the point where women do not feel successful unless they have an outside career on top of being a mom. Society is the one that tells women we need to work outside the home to be successful. The Bible does not say that. God does not say that. Again, no, we are not just mothers, but especially during a season of our lives when we have young children, that is what our focus needs to be. We are seeing the fallout in today’s society of neglecting that aspect of a woman’s life.

These differences between men & women cannot be denied—not scientifically—yet society is continually trying to deny it. So in that sense, I am a woman but I am not a feminist. I think women have to be very careful about their motives in rising to the supposed “top“ of whatever ladder they’re climbing. Are they doing it because Jesus has put a call on their hearts, or are they doing it because they are bitter and have something to prove to the male half of society? And that’s where sin can run amok – – and is running amok – – in both society and churches. We need to be very careful we don’t impale our Christian brothers with our high heels in our attempt for equality. And don’t be fooled. The “equality” society is pushing these days is not Genesis equality. We have achieved equality in the United States of America between men and women. One can be petty and argue exceptions, but by and large, we women are blessed with incredible freedom and as many opportunities as men. What you see going on in society now, however, is beyond ridiculous. The feminist movement is trying so hard to wipe out the lines between men and women, that when you combine its efforts with this growing transgender movement, there is no longer anything special about our different genders. And that is extremely sad.

I have two daughters, and you know what I pray for them? I pray that they will be strong, independent, intelligent women of God – – who will marry stronger, more loving men who put God first and their wives second. I want a godly Captain America, if you will, for each of my daughters. And I have faith that God is prepping those two boys out there right now, so that when the time comes to meet my precious girls, they will be ready to stand up as men of faith, adhering to the Bible and proclaiming the Word of truth.